PAUL MONIZ: I'm Paul Moniz. Thanks for joining us today. Today's topic is something most of us have experienced, stress on the job. It can effect a lot more than just job performance. It can color your whole outlook on life, affecting your personal relationships, even your health, contributing to heart disease, memory loss and loss of libido. Tight deadlines, a demanding boss and concerns over job security can make that trip to the office a dreaded task.
Here to explain how this stress develops and what you can do to control it are two clinical psychologists who work together. They are Dr. Fran Massino and Dr. Willy Wiener, both of the Institute for Performance Advancement which deals with stress and anxiety in the workplace.
Dr. Massino, let's talk about stress with you first. How would you define stress?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: I think stress is how our bodies react to some kind of change in the environment. So it could be having additional tasks at work. It could be getting into a disagreement with your wife or husband. So how your body reacts is interpreted as some kind of stress.
PAUL MONIZ: This is a tough one, but why is it that one person will act one way toward the same event, and another person will act completely in a different way?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Because they think about those events differently. That explains their difference in reaction.
PAUL MONIZ: Can you know ahead of time how you are going to react in terms of the type of person you are? Is that the danger that people get into is they don't know when they have bitten off more than they can chew, so to speak?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: I don't know if it's about biting off more than they can chew. I think certain people have ways of thinking about things that give rise to stress. Rules, rigid scripts that they have running in their head.
PAUL MONIZ: Such as?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Such as...
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Punctuality, if I may jump in. Some people are very rigid about time. Not wanting to be late to a movie, for instance. And other people say, "Well if I get there a couple of minutes late, it's not that big of a deal." But that's one.
Other people don't really worry about getting to work on time, taking a lunch break at a prescribed hour. So other people are much more flexible in their thinking about time. That's one that we see that comes up.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: That illustrates the point well and aside from the merits of being on time, it illustrates the point that the way you think about it can change the way you feel about it. If you believe everything must be on time all the time, then when something is 10 minutes late, you're liable to be stressed out, angry, and depressed about it. If your attitude is "Well, I strive for that all the time, but sometimes it doesn't happen and that's okay," you're going to be much more relaxed in the face of that kind of event.
PAUL MONIZ: But the danger is that when someone is really relying on this punctuality as some kind of a test of their own responsibility, if they fail in a recreational environment, it can ruin the whole experience. You get someone who is standing there waiting for you 10 minutes before the movie and you're late, there is no reason for the person to get all in a huff about it, but they do. So how do you learn to have some boundaries in terms of when stress is appropriate and when it is not? For instance, if someone is late, if you are holding a board meeting and someone is five minutes late, it is an issue. It's a board meeting, and they need to be there. And there is an appropriate response to someone's lateness. If someone is five minutes late for the movie, there is not that same sense of responsibility.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: I think the question is, is it adaptive? And that's the key question that people should ask themselves. Is the way I'm thinking about this adaptive? To be on time for board meetings, as you point out, is quite adaptive. You'll be well received in your place of work if you're on time, and perhaps not so if you're late.
At the same time if someone is late for a movie and you make a big deal of it, you can taint the whole evening and that's not adaptive.
PAUL MONIZ: How does stress manifest itself in the body? Can people see it in your face? We know sometimes it can work and sometimes it can be kept inside where someone else might not know that you're stressed.
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: I think both. It really depends on the individual. A lot of times people furrow their brows, look distracted by something that's going on. A lot of times it's really happening internally. A lot of times when people have given speeches that they are nervous about, or anxious about, afterward people will come and say, "Wow, you seemed so calm or you seemed so relaxed," even though internally their heart was racing, their mouth may have been drier, their palms may have been sweating a little bit more. So sometimes it's easier to read in certain people, particularly when it's carried in the shoulders or in the neck when people tend to get tensed up.
PAUL MONIZ: Stress in the workplace is a huge issue for people. They spend so much time at the office. People are working 50-60 hours a week. How do you deal with a difficult boss, probably the most asked question when it comes to stress in the workplace?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Well I think firstly you might dispense with the notion that you're entitled to an equitable, fair and intelligent boss even. I think if people lose their what we call an investment in a just world hypothesis and accept the idea that some people will fall short of their expectations and may not even be fair. You don't have to like that, but accepting that state of affairs can render you less susceptible to being stressed out about it.
PAUL MONIZ: How do you accept it but still get what you need in an employment situation? For instance, if a manager is unresponsive to you and you need them to respond back to you about projects or deadlines, how do you deal with that person?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: I would encourage them to have a candid conversation about it. To really take some time to organize their thoughts and say, "I've sent you a number of E-mails," or "I put some memos," or "I've left some voice mails for you, and I haven't heard back from you." Is there a more effective way that I can communicate with you about some of the things that need to be done, some of the tasks that are competing for my attention? But I would encourage people to be direct about it.
PAUL MONIZ: And you just touched on something very important. You go in there with some solution. How can I be more effective with you, as opposed to what's going on with you, or I have a problem with you. Don't use those words.
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Right.
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Too often when there are morale problems in a corporate setting, it's part of people getting together and talking about the problems as opposed to the solutions. We see that often.
PAUL MONIZ: That's a good pointer.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: I would like to add that boss may or may not be responsive to that request or that conversation. But at least you can go to sleep that night knowing that, hey you have been as direct as possible in dealing with this situation and you haven't been just sitting on it. You've been taking a step. You've done something, and we'll see how that person responds.
PAUL MONIZ: One of the things that prevents or makes people reluctant to go to their boss with issues like this is they feel they are going to be perceived as a problem or they may feel there is going to be a black mark on them, either in their record or in their boss's mind more likely. So how would you advise someone on when you should go to your boss to talk about these issues?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: We really stress the importance of remembering that it is not what you say, it's how you say it. If you go in and you lead off with, "You're a terrible boss. I can't get anything done." That is likely to leave an indelible mark in your boss's mind as opposed to if you go in and say, "I want to talk to you about some ways that I think that we can maximize my efficiency. There are some things that are frustrating me, and I wanted to speak with you candidly about those things."
What we found in some of the consulting work that we do is that some managers and bosses are actually very receptive to receiving feedback. They are unaware of how they are perceived which is not to be confused with the reality that Willy said which is, you can't expect that people are going to change. There are times when there are unreasonable bosses and that's just something that you need to work on accepting this person's limitations.
PAUL MONIZ: What would you say in terms of the boss who is not receptive to your suggestions? If you go in there and say, "here is what I think should happen." They just say, "You know, you're all wet. This isn't a problem. You know, you just have to do what's been handed out to you."
WILLY WIENER, PhD: I think soothing yourself a little bit and, again, giving your script room for this to happen. I think a lot of people say this can't happen to me. It's just too unfair. How can he say such things? How can she say such a thing? So recognizing that that's the way things happen sometimes is the first step. And then maybe thinking about working elsewhere and getting in touch with your -- even if you never do -- just recognizing that you are there by choice and there are probably some other job opportunities for you somewhere that you might slowly begin to think about.
PAUL MONIZ: So you need to try to make things work, but you gotta know when to jump ship.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Yeah.
PAUL MONIZ: There is a time, perhaps in every career, or in every job, where it is just time to move on.
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Absolutely.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Yes. I was working with a client who had a supervisor who was really unreceptive to accommodating her medical condition in any way, and she ended up leaving that position. I thought on some level that was the most adaptive step for her to take, not an abrupt or nasty way, but extracting herself from that working relationship.
PAUL MONIZ: Some of the typical stressors that we all deal with, poor communication. It's a big one. How can you improve communication with people without feeling like you are trying to boss them around, especially if it is someone who isn't your subordinate?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Back to it's not what you say, it's how you say it. We actually work on assertiveness training. You hit the nail on the head. Communication is one of the biggest problems in terms of conflicts in the workplace, reduced productivity, absenteeism, turnover because of the frustration and people blowing up inappropriately. Training people to drop back and really organize their thoughts beforehand. What are the stressors at the job? What else might I be bringing with me to work? Are there things that are happening at home that are really frustrating to hear and exacerbating some of the anxieties here at the job?
PAUL MONIZ: You need to be able to separate those out before you can come up with a real constructive plan of action.
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Absolutely.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Yeah. There's a lot to be said for taking a step back and re-evaluating the situation. We tend to do better. Our analytic skills are better when we pull ourselves out of the situation for a moment. So if you are really anxious or upset with someone, the best thing to do is to take a moment to gather your thoughts.
PAUL MONIZ: Saying no. It's difficult for some people when projects are just heaped on top of each other and you're really drowning, but you are reluctant to say something. What would you say about that?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Realistically there are times when you can't say no because you are the only person to complete this task. What we encourage people to do is to take a look at the things that are competing for their attention, to prioritize them as best they can and then check in with the supervisor to say, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. These are the things that I need to complete by tomorrow afternoon. I'm going to address plan A, B and C first, and then I am going to get to plan D, or project D. Do you think that is an acceptable way to proceed?
PAUL MONIZ: In that way the person is aware that there is an issue but you are going in there with some sort of a solution.
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Yes.
WILLY WIENER, PhD: Right.
PAUL MONIZ: How useful is it to role play in your own mind as part of the stepping back process and say, "Okay, how does management view me? What are my strengths? What am I bringing to the table?" Can people do that objectively do you think?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: With some help. I think with some help. I think it's tremendously important because we do carry certain things to the workplace with us. There are people who are a little more hot tempered than others. There are people who are better communicators because they have had more experience, but communication is a skill. Taking stock of your own personality traits, of your own variables, your strengths and your weaknesses is something that can be overwhelming at times. But I believe with support, it's not that difficult to do.
PAUL MONIZ: The stress in the workplace spilling over into the rest of your lives, we've all seen it. Spending so much time at the office affects every aspect of you from your energy level to your ability to want to go out and do things that you normally enjoy. How do you leave work at work? It's not really that easy. There is probably no one solution, but what are some of the steps people can take to be able to walk away from it at least in part at the end of the day?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: I think that's very important. I think to some extent it is healthy not to leave work at work. Those folks who think about work after work may be fulfilled by their work as well. At any rate, to be able to disengage yourself completely from whatever it is that you are doing for that long stretch of time and the recognition that you may be more effective in those places or in your workplace if you are able to take time off to relax, to give attention to your family, to give attention to your leisure pursuit will likely in the long run make you a more effective worker and stave off burnout.
PAUL MONIZ: And in terms of combating the "Sunday night blues" which is a big thing for people, what would you suggest people should do on Sunday night? We've all been there before. Sunday morning you start thinking about what's happening on Monday. You think you really only have one day for the weekend, so how do you readjust that?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Challenging some of the negative expectations for Monday in the first place, planning a pleasurable event Sunday night to say, "I'm really going to end this weekend with a bang." To plan a lunch with a friend or colleague on Monday afternoon so that the morning is not as bleak. When you get there you know that on other side of this morning you are going to have a nice lunch with a friend. Really challenging the thoughts.
PAUL MONIZ: Good advice. Let's go to some of these e-mails that we received regarding questions to both of you. One is from someone saying my boss always tells me that I'm not working hard enough, but I feel like I'm trying as hard as I can. I feel stressed out all the time, and I can't sleep at night. Is there anything I can do? What would you say to the point that it is disrupting your sleep?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: There are a lot of things that person might do in terms of addressing their overall stress levels, but the first thing would be to get some sleep. Sleep is being increasingly recognized as something that can throw off your emotional functioning in significant ways. So really getting that sleep, and if it is a persistent problem, even using some medication for that sleep. Some of the thinking now is that some of the sleep medications -- the risks of taking them outweigh the risks of not getting sleep. So sleep is very important, and I would start with that and then I would examine that person's way of thinking about their job situation and their boss.
PAUL MONIZ: Another person writes, "I recently broke out in a rash. Can this be due to my level of stress and my boss constantly harassing me?"
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Definitely. Dermatological problems are linked with stress with eczema, with rashes, with hives. Doing some deep breathing, trying to stay relaxed in the workplace would certainly be helpful, but if it persists, consulting a dermatologist is definitely warranted.
PAUL MONIZ: Given the fact that we spend so much time at work, and many of us are defined by what we do perhaps to a degree that isn't healthy, how would you advise someone to separate what they do from who they are and get back in touch with themselves?
WILLY WIENER, PhD: I think it's a part of who we are. It's an important part, but it's just a part, and our professional life is one part of our life. We have a social life. We have a family life. We have, perhaps, an artistic life, and keeping that in perspective, I think really sets the stage for a much healthier approach to work and life.
PAUL MONIZ: So if you find yourself stressful, you would say what? Find some things that take the heat off a little bit?
FRANCIS MASSINO, PhD: Find some pleasurable activities. Some things that can distract you. We do exercises with people, having them visualize the color red. Once they really have an idea of red, we tell them to stop thinking about red, and often times it is difficult to do unless people begin thinking about another color, or unless they really have something to replace it with. So when people bring work related stress home, we encourage them to focus their attention exclusively on playing with the child, taking the dog for a walk, to get outside and really try to incorporate all of the senses to find a way to just relax and leave work at work.
PAUL MONIZ: Okay, some very, very good advice. Dr. Fran Massino, thank you very much for your time. Dr. Willy Wiener, as well. Both from the Institute for Performance Advancement in Manhattan. As both of the psychologists here noted, stress can be dealt with. You just have to be persistent about it and try to get out there and enjoy what's outside of work. I'm Paul Moniz, thanks for being with us.
